C 400 GT: It Appears That I Have A Coolant Leak [Wrong: See 10/19/23 Message]

[wspollack]

Okay, coming home yesterday (about a 100-mile goofing-off run, with a lunch stop in the middle), the bike seemed to be a tiny bit louder under acceleration, and running maybe 10F° hotter than usual on the coolant temp display. And at times -- I got stuck in a traffic jam near home, because a road was closed because of an accident -- the temp creeped all the way up to 220° or so.

And when I first noticed this (before the traffic jam), I decided to go in full WFO mode a couple of times, maybe 15 minutes apart. The top end was now, both times, at 73mph, on level ground; that's down from about 89 (and just the day before, I had the scoot up in the 80s a few times).

When I got home, I waited an hour or so, and fired up the bike in the garage. I wanted to see if there was a fan problem. Nope. Eventually, the coolant temp reached 212°, the fan kicked in, and the temp dropped to 202° a few seconds later. I let this cycle repeat itself four or five times, with the exact same numbers. So apparently no problem there.

I checked the oil level, per the manual's instructions (up to temp, shut off for a minute, level bike, don't screw it back in, etc.) The oil level was exactly at the max mark.

I checked the coolant level, and it was low (green is max line, yellow the min line, and red is the top of the actual coolant):



So I called Max BMW in Troy (NY), and got an appointment about four weeks from now! Mostly, I wanted to see if they could pull any fault codes, check out the scoot, etc.

Today, I drove over there (i.e., in a car), bought some coolant, mixed up a pint (with distilled water), and this afternoon got around to adding it to the overflow tank (pictured above). I got a special flexible funnel, with a nice built-in container and an on/off control under its bucket. I managed to stick the hose in the top of the overflow tank, and watched as the funnel's bucket emptied, and tried to also watch the overflow tank (which is a real PITA to see).

When the funnel had completely emptied, I took a good long look at the overflow tank. Here's this afternoon's pic of that:



I thought it looked remarkably similar to yesterday's pre-coolant-addition picture.

So I looked around, and discovered a puddle (wiped up before I took the pic, but you can see the contrast in the floor color):



It appears that somewhere down the line -- past the overflow tank -- and somewhere down the road, I have developed a coolant system leak. Further, sticking my finger in some area way down there, it seems that the bodywork can capture and retain some coolant ... up to a point, anyway. I found a very wet area down there, a little to the left of center.

I discussed the lack of top speed, etc., with a couple of the techs at Max's today, when I was picking up the coolant. They asserted that since I got no blinking, flashing, text, etc., warning messages that they were confident that no harm was done to the bike. And that I should fill up the overflow tank, and go for a short test ride. (And one guy suggested I add some Techron to the gas). Well, that test ride is out now.

I plan on driving back to Max's tomorrow, see if I can talk with the GM, and try to get some loaner bike. I mean, I bought the bike there last year, ordered at the end of last May, and had my two service appointments there (the bike has c. 5,600 miles on it). This shouldn't happen to a bike this new.

If I don't have any luck with a loaner or moving up the service, maybe I'll try to contact Motorad USA. And maybe go a few hundred yards down the road, to Troy City Garage, and buy a new Honda Navi or something, to keep me on two wheels in the interim.

That's my report.

 

[Delray]

As always, interesting and eloquent -- and with visual aids. Sorry for your woes, especially at the beginning of riding season.

Your C 400 GT seems to have been largely trouble-free. I've heard that the bike has its share of issues, attributed to 100% Kymco production. Of course, this may be about as true as the Chicken-Little cry over Burgman 650's: "The CVT will fail! The CVT will fail!" Hopefully yours is a one-off and you're back on the road soon. Few people seem to soak up everything about being on two wheels as much as you.

 

[wspollack]

As always, interesting and eloquent -- and with visual aids. Sorry for your woes, especially at the beginning of riding season.

Your C 400 GT seems to have been largely trouble-free. I've heard that the bike has its share of issues, attributed to 100% Kymco production. Of course, this may be about as true as the Chicken-Little cry over Burgman 650's: "The CVT will fail! The CVT will fail!" Hopefully yours is a one-off and you're back on the road soon. Few people seem to soak up everything about being on two wheels as much as you.

Thanks for the kind words.

Manufacturing:

Well, I don't think it's actually a Kymco engine, but close, apparently.

BMW's own site, https://www.bmwgroup-werke.com/berlin/en/unser-werk/internationale-produktion.html, seems to state that the scoot's engine and possibly the rest of it comes from Loncin in China, not Kymco in Taiwan:

Since September 2007, the Chinese manufacturer Loncin has been producing various engine components, motorcycle parts and complete engines for BMW Motorrad. One of China's largest motorcycle and scooter manufacturers, the company currently employs over 5,000 people. Loncin also has its own research and development center. At present, Loncin makes engines for the BMW F 750 GS and F 850 GS. In addition, the midsize scooters BMW C 400 X and C 400 GT roll off the production lines here.

On the other hand, this is from a C 400 GT 2019 review, https://www.visordown.com/reviews/first-ride/c-400-gt-2019-review, in Visor Down (a generally reputable outfit, I believe):

Both models share the same single-cylinder, four-stroke, 350cc engine producing a respectable 34bhp through the seamless CVT gearbox. Although it was designed in Germany, the bike is built in China and the engine shares more than a resemblance to a current Kymoc lump.

I'm pretty sure that "Kymoc" is a typo, i.e., that they mean "Kymco."

I do believe that Kymco was or is the supplier of some of the other engines used or in use in some other Beemer models, including the now-defunct 600/650 scooters, but I've never done much looking into that.

Trouble-Free:

Yep, my C 400 GT has, until now, been completely, 100%, without issues. I've been loving it, especially the handling and smoothness. And riding it mostly in a fairly spirited manner.

Here's hoping, um, maybe a clamp loosened and some hose disconnected itself.

I emailed the GM at Max's last night. To my surprise, he read it and replied to me, "Will take a look and see what we can do."

If I were younger or had a table lift (or both), I might see about taking off the absolute bottom, underneath, pieces of tupperware, and looking around, especially if it's really going to be a month. But I'm old, don't have a lift, and don't like getting down on the ground, so we'll see what develops, what the GM comes up with.

 

[Delray]

Similar to your C 400 GT, the engine on my C 650 GT was "designed in Germany" but manufactured by Kymco. The bike is assembled in Berlin. I suppose various components could come from God-knows-where. It's a small world, after all.

Interesting to see your C 400 GT's specs. My new-to-me '18 Burgman 400 is 32hp and 399cc. I am eager to discover its wonders. It's encouraging that you can tackle the Adirondacks with your GT. Have you ridden it in the High Peaks and if not, how do you think it would fare up there?

 

[wspollack]

Similar to your C 400 GT, the engine on my C 650 GT was "designed in Germany" but manufactured by Kymco. The bike is assembled in Berlin. I suppose various components could come from God-knows-where. It's a small world, after all.

Interesting to see your C 400 GT's specs. My new-to-me '18 Burgman 400 is 32hp and 399cc. I am eager to discover its wonders. It's encouraging that you can tackle the Adirondacks with your GT. Have you ridden it in the High Peaks and if not, how do you think it would fare up there?

While I do a fair amount of riding in the southern and southwestern part of the Adirondack Park, I haven't ridden any High Peaks. A little too far north for me -- I think -- for day trips. (I've been to the top of Whiteface, but in a car.)

Yep, I believe the HP is a bit higher on the C 400 than the Burgman 400's, and the torque and weight are about the same. I'll find out in July how the C 400 X handles higher peaks than that, on my upcoming Alps tour; I have every confidence in it, or I wouldn't have badgered Edelweiss into letting me ride that.

I was looking at my shop manual this morning, and although I have no idea whether this is the case, it seems to me that the simplest cause of a coolant leak would be to have the drain bolt loosen and maybe even fall out. Seems like a simpler explanation than having a loose hose clamp and subsequent disconnection of a hose. Unfortunately, I don't think I can see that area without removing some low-down tupperware that I've never taken off. Be nice if I had a table lift.

 

[Delray]

"the simplest cause of a coolant leak would be to have the drain bolt loosen"

I was going to suggest with a new bike, the odds are in your favor that it's a simple issue, very possibly man-made (i.e, loose bolt).

Several years ago, I had the coolant changed on a Toyota 4Runner in preparation for a trip from Florida to Alabama. Wife and I left on Christmas Day and 80 miles into the trip, I see steam coming out of the engine and the temp gauge goes off the charts. I pulled over to check and found a puddle of coolant under the vehicle. Only choice was to get towed home (another curve ball, getting towing service on Christmas Day. Took six hours).

Turns out the culprit was no new gasket for the drain bolt and the bolt was loose enough to leak. Dealer was Japanese-level apologetic and didn't charge a dime to make it all right, but Christmas was long-gone.

 

[Msprygada]

Any word on your coolant leak?

 

[wspollack]

Any word on your coolant leak?

No.

For those keeping score at home:

- May 11: called the service dept. when I got home from the suspect ride, whined a little, and was told that June 13 was the absolute earliest they could schedule the work.

- May 12 - June 2: whined some more, via phone and email, to the owner of Max's, asking for a more expeditious appointment, or a loaner, or a rental. Got nowhere.

- June 2 - June 3: went half-heartedly shopping for a backup, backroad, bike -- a Grom, a SuperCub, a Grom-like Kawi, etc. -- in the $4K range. Might have bought something, were it not for the $500 - $600 dealer prep, shipping, etc., costs that get added to the list price of these bikes.

- June 10: the C 400 GT was picked up from my house by Max's van.

- June 13: still my scheduled appointment date (although at least the bike is at their shop in Troy now).

I am very disappointed in Max's. Yeah, everyone's overworked, short-staffed, yada, yada. Still, I have a bike under warranty that's not rideable, and I missed more than a month of prime-time riding in my riding season that's about half a year long. My view is that a shop should squeeze in: 1) out-of-town traveling folks who have an on-the-road, mid-trip, emergency; 2) warranty issues; 3) and if necessary slide back the work on everyone else. Maybe I'm wrong about this, because I'm obviously not a disinterested party.

My wife and I have a pretty fancy (if smallish) SUV, which has 79,000 miles on it and is almost six years old. It also happens to be our sole car, and when we need some work on it that may take all day (or even longer, on two occasions now), we take it to the only dealership in 100 miles or so, where AT MOST we have scheduled maybe two weeks out, and we get a current model year loaner. Maybe I'm spoiled by this sort of treatment, or maybe it's what I should also expect anyway from a BMW bike dealership (which is also the only one for miles around, and is where I bought the bike).

Thanks for asking.

 

[Msprygada]

Well that's a bummer. Totally get that in the northern part of our country that you would want to not have your ride sitting in the garage for a month. Hopefully its fixed fast and you are back on the road.

 

[Msprygada]

Hey Bill, I am going to assume that you got the coolant leak fixed???

 

[wspollack]

Hey Bill, I am going to assume that you got the coolant leak fixed???

First, thanks for asking.

Next, well, er, um, it's a long story. Your assumption -- that it's fixed -- is a reasonable one, but not correct in this case.

It turns out that I was wrong: it wasn't a coolant leak. That was the only thing that came to mind, that I could easily check at home. The coolant was a little low -- not much, but a little -- and also it looks like that I merely overfilled the overflow tank, resulting in a pool on the floor. Hey, that overflow tank is incredibly hard to see and read in the best of circumstances, let alone while you're trying to pour stuff into it (given that the fill area is on a different side from the hard-to-see level marks).

No, the bike had an engine problem. And is still at the dealership.

(I thought I'd pause here, for you to start breathing again, regain your calm, etc., after reading that.)

Having communicated with the dealership and BMW North America for some months now, I expect that this saga will be over in a few weeks -- famous last words -- at which time I will issue a full report on everything, in a separate thread about warranty pros and cons, dealerships, time lines, yada yada yada.

In the meantime, luckily, I have gotten a fair amount of riding in, anyway.

1) In July, I spent nine long days riding a C 400 X in the Alps, midst its hairpins, switchbacks, twisties, and gorgeous scenery:

Edelweiss Ultimate Alps Tour, July 2023

billanddot.com

2) Also in July — the week after I got home — I bought a brand new bike, to tide me over while the saga above plays out:

2023 Royal Enfield Meteor 350

billanddot.com

That bike does not have the speed, acceleration, cornering confidence, braking, suspension, storage, weather protection, heated amenities, and modern dash and communications capabilities of the Beemer. Heck, it doesn't even have a tach or a windscreen.

OTOH, it was about half the price, is even lighter, and -- more importantly -- it does handle very nicely, has such old-school elemental charm that it is very nearly a perfect back-road machine (tops out at about 72mph), and results in a shiteatinggrin pretty much all the time I ride it. I now have over 1,000 miles on it.

So, that's the current situation. I'll save the long story details for another day, okay?

 

[wspollack]

This problem, it turns out, had nothing to do at all with a slightly low coolant level.

For the REAL problem, see my post from FIVE MONTHS LATER:

BMW Swapped Out My Used '22 C 400 GT For A Brand New '23 C 400 GT ... Free. [Part I of II]

Today, My Used 2022 C 400 GT Was Replaced By BMW With A Brand New 2023 C 400 GT. Free. What's In Your Warranty? If those statements pique your curiosity, and you have some free time, here's the tale, in chronological order. Note that it starts LAST year, almost a year and a half ago. [Note...

www.bmw-scooters.com