Emergency Braking: Scooter vs Motorcycle

grey.hound

New member
Twice in the past three weeks I have activated the ABS, deer running crossing in front of me. Funny thing, only once in my previous 4 years had I even seen deer on a ride.

So, I grab both brakes slow waaaay down, then let both go and keep moving without missing a beat. How about on a motorcycle? What would happen had I done the same thing,let the clutch out and let off the front brake only?
 

exavid

Member
Not to clear on the question but it's definitely easier on a scooter with ABS than even an ABS equipped motorcycle since you only have to react with two hands on the scooter instead of two hands and a foot as on a motorcycle. In both cases with ABS you don't have to waste any time modulating the brakes to get maximum stopping power and avoiding wheel skid it's just matter of grabbing two handfuls of brakes and squeezing hard. ABS is great stuff.
Try braking hard on a bike or scooter without ABS, gotta be careful not to lock up that front wheel or you'll go down, and locking up the rear loses maximum stopping power once it's skidding as does the front. Lots of time lost in manipulating the brakes and keeping the bike under control. I find it much better to trust the ABS. Especially when you didn't see the sudden need for slowing/stopping coming up. ABS is good for surprises.
 
I have a question that maybe a member can answer. Is the scooter ABS the same as on BMW motorcycles, i.e. integral? - The fully integral brake system always decelerates both wheels, no matter whether only the hand or foot brake levers are being operated.
 

grey.hound

New member
don't know about know if the abs is integral or not.

exavid, I guess my question is based on lack of knowledge since I've never ridden and MC. Isn't there a need to time the clutch, gear shifter, and brakes and throttle accordingly or risk a high side or something like that.

In the scenario I described, I just braked, to and almost stop, then throttled, all without really thinking. On an MC had I just braked/clutched, then back on the accelerator without shifting, would there have been consequences?

Thanks, just curious.
 

exavid

Member
Depends. If the rear wheel of a MC gets into a slide, ie, the bike's rear wheel is sliding toward one side or the other you need to stay on the power to prevent the rear wheel suddenly grabbing traction. Suddenly stopping the slide before the front wheel can straighten out the bike is a great way to do something like a pole vault or high siding. If the front wheel, turned in the direction of the skid can't get the bike straightened out at least it will be a lay down which isn't nearly as violent. Very nasty way to get off. I've done it a couple of times riding on dirt. There's little better training that a bit of dirt racing or just playing around on it. An old bike that you don't mind scratching up a bit and good safety gear is a great way to get the right instincts.
A bike of scooter with ABS really is a great improvement regardless of what some hot-shots say. It's true a well trained and experienced rider can out perform ABS in braking but most of us aren't that good. Even the greatest can't do much when a deer suddenly jumps out at you or you go around a blind curve and find a truck stalled in your lane. ABS allows us average riders to keep the bike controlled and ride out some situations that we're not likely to have done on our own. With the ABS it's mostly
a matter of grabbing the brakes hard and riding it out. There's always a risk on bikes, whether they are scooters or MCs. I've made my share of unplanned dismounts over the years. I have to be a bit more cautious these days, I don't bounce so well any more.
Be careful out there. Those cagers are out to get us.
 

t6pilot

Member
I'am under the impression scooter brakes are linked, when you apply the front brakes the rear brake is also applied to a lessor degree
My RT, K1600 and GS were all linked
 

justscootin

Member
If they are connected why not just have one foot brake or one hand brake?

Try this put the scooter on the center stand start the scooter clamp on the front brake and you will find the back wheel will still spin

I'am under the impression scooter brakes are linked, when you apply the front brakes the rear brake is also applied to a lessor degree
My RT, K1600 and GS were all linked
 

bicyclenut

Member
I know my Honda had linked brakes (or called combined braking system), but as I understand the BMW C650GT, the brakes are not linked.

"The 270mm, twin-piston-caliper brakes are not linked, though ABS is standard." - Cycle World Review

If they are connected why not just have one foot brake or one hand brake?

Try this put the scooter on the center stand start the scooter clamp on the front brake and you will find the back wheel will still spin
 

Grafspee

New member
Known fact: There are more deer in the United States today than there was during the time that Davy Crocket hunted them!!!!
 

Grafspee

New member
A good portion of them are in the city limits where I live. Bought My GT over a week ago and have had one emergency stop and one evasive maneuver due to deer so far. A friend of mine tells me the Texas Hill Country is almost unrideable because of deer.
 

t6pilot

Member
Justscootin
Reread manual you are correct, not linked. Funny sales person when my wife got scooter said the were
Thanks for correction
Jim
 

exavid

Member
I'am under the impression scooter brakes are linked, when you apply the front brakes the rear brake is also applied to a lessor degree
My RT, K1600 and GS were all linked

Some scooters and motorcycles do have linked brakes. For example Honda Goldwings from the 1200 model to the current 1800s all had linked brakes. When you press the brake pedal pressure is applied to both brakes but most of the pressure goes to the rear brake. The linking doesn't make much if any difference in how one handles the brakes. Any linking system would have to apply less brake effort to the front wheel than the rear or one would lose control in a hard stop or on sandy or gravel roads.
 

exavid

Member
If they are connected why not just have one foot brake or one hand brake?

Try this put the scooter on the center stand start the scooter clamp on the front brake and you will find the back wheel will still spin

Actually that won't work. Linked brakes normally are set up so that the linkage only works on the front wheel when the rear brake is applied. Operating the front brake doesn't apply the rear brake. At lease that's the way Honda does it on the Goldwing and some of their other models.
 
If they are connected why not just have one foot brake or one hand brake?

Try this put the scooter on the center stand start the scooter clamp on the front brake and you will find the back wheel will still spin

That's strange as I had a friendly argument with BMW Toronto mechanic who with scoot on ramp applied brake and rear wheel stopped. I was saying it was not linked - he assured me it was.
 

MatteOrange

New member
Linked brakes are rear activated with front, I don't know of any that work the other way (front applied with rear).
My C650 sport does not have linked brakes.

BMW RT and Honda ST worked rear with front.
 

SteveADV

Active member
....... I guess my question is based on lack of knowledge since I've never ridden and MC. Isn't there a need to time the clutch, gear shifter, and brakes and throttle accordingly or risk a high side or something like that.

In the scenario I described, I just braked, to and almost stop, then throttled, all without really thinking...

Same thing on a motorcycle. Muscle memory from shifting/braking thousands of times. I am one of those weirdos that actually likes shifting.
 
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grey.hound

New member
Yeah Steve, that's what I've heard. I guess I'm just wondering about in a panic situation, what happens if you just "panic" and get it all wrong. by the way, no ride this past weekend.
 

SteveADV

Active member
Guess if you get it wrong you end up in the ditch. When on the Triumph I only think about shifting/braking when not in one of those situations you described. If it's gotta be done fast, it just gets done. But I know what you mean. It would seem that coordinating the hand brake, foot brake, clutch lever and maybe while downshifting would be a problem in a panic situation.
 

exavid

Member
Deer are a problem in this area too. When I'm out in the evening and after dark on two lane roads especially I try to find a car to follow and let them clear the dear. Two friends have had deer collision in the past couple of years, luckily no serious injuries but some pretty expensive damage to their Goldwings. So far I've been lucky a few close calls but no impacts. I think I'd rather hit them with a Goldwing though.

I think most of us who've ridden motorcycles for a lot of years don't really think of what we're doing at times in operating the machine. It just becomes more or less automatic. Even so there's something to be said for a machine that doesn't need as much manipulation to control. Basically on a scooter you have four controls, two brakes, throttle and handlebar. On a motorcycle you have two more, clutch and shifter. No matter how automatically it becomes there's just a bit more to do on a regular MC. It might be that ABS is even more of an advantage on a MC since it does reduce the rider's workload.
 

justscootin

Member
When on the scooter just clamp your front and back brakes as hard as you can, you got ABS brakes use them. You will not do a stoppie but you will hear the rubber grind in the asphalt as you come to a stop (really cool sound)

When I took my course for riding back in 1983 I was taught that when in an emergency situation the best choice was to steer clear, if that was not possible clamp both hands and stomp both feet and hold till you are out of danger or stopped. When it happens to you it will come naturally and easily, if you have to ask you should go back to the empty parking lot.

Don't worry about down shifting you are out of gear as the clutch is pulled in

Yes it works
 
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