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New Guy in Town - Erik Buell's Fuell Electric

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Erik Buell's Fuell Electric motorcycle ($10,495 - $12,995 MSRP) is just around the corner. In fact they are taking discounted reservations now.

Pretty interesting bike with some different technology such as it's hub motor eliminates the need for a trans-axle, gears, pulleys, belts, etc. making it more efficient. Lightweight only 400 pounds and quick 0-60 3.5 sec. 150 mile range.

There's a number of good articles on this new bike from Erik, He's the same guy who designed the Buell Harley Davidson for years. Not overly crazy on the looks, guess you have to get used to it!

Mike

Prelaunch

prelaunch.com prelaunch.com


FUELL 2.png
 
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I had been considering the Fuell Fllow as a possible touring-worthy replacement to the BMW CE-04: the Fllow supports DC charging, has more range, and more cargo space. I was even on the VIP pre-order list. In the end, I came to realize that love the CE-04 even more than I previously did and I couldn't get over the weird look of the Fllow: it's like a 1980's take on the future. On the plus side, it should be substantially lower maintenance than the CE-04, as it's taking full advantage of what you can do with an electric bike: no belt, no chain.

There's a lot of risk involved with launching a new motorcycle company - I truly wish them the best of luck and look forward to whatever they launch next.

The bike I'm keeping a look out for now is the Verge TS Pro, which is landing in Europe this month. It's admittedly far less practical and far more expensive than either option, but I think it represents the future better than either.
 
triangletom said:
I had been considering the Fuell Fllow as a possible touring-worthy replacement to the BMW CE-04: the Fllow supports DC charging, has more range, and more cargo space. I was even on the VIP pre-order list. In the end, I came to realize that love the CE-04 even more than I previously did and I couldn't get over the weird look of the Fllow: it's like a 1980's take on the future. On the plus side, it should be substantially lower maintenance than the CE-04, as it's taking full advantage of what you can do with an electric bike: no belt, no chain.

There's a lot of risk involved with launching a new motorcycle company - I truly wish them the best of luck and look forward to whatever they launch next.

The bike I'm keeping a look out for now is the Verge TS Pro, which is landing in Europe this month. It's admittedly far less practical and far more expensive than either option, but I think it represents the future better than either.
Click to expand...
Keeping my eye on the Verge TS Pro too.

Configured mine in Blazing Red, Black Leather and Öhlins - $29,900

Love that it’s ingeniously designed with that super efficient hub-less drive that eliminates energy loss from a belt or chain design, so even lower maintenance costs than our CE 04’s.

Kind of proud that it comes from Finland too, as my late father was Finn.

Thinking I could have the CE 04 for for my city electric bike and the Verge TS Pro for my touring electric bike for touring around Lake Superior.

https://imgur.com/xglR2i7
 
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2Wheelz said:
Keeping my eye on the Verge TS Pro too.

Configured mine in Blazing Red, Black Leather and Öhlins - $29,900

Love that it’s ingeniously designed with that super efficient hub-less drive that eliminates energy loss from a belt or chain design, so even lower maintenance costs than our CE 04’s.

Kind of proud that it comes from Finland too, as my late father was Finn.

Thinking I could have the CE 04 for for my city electric bike and the Verge TS Pro for my touring electric bike for touring around Lake Superior.

https://imgur.com/xglR2i7
Click to expand...
Just thought about something with the VergeTS Pro; if you don’t have a dealership close by, who’s going to change that tire when it needs to be done?

I’m guessing a Verge dealer is going to have to have some special equipment to change this very expensive hub-less tire/motor combination. Regular motorcycle dealerships that don’t carry the Verge line won’t risk working on this expensive hub-less/motor system.

Where I live in Duluth, Minnesota, my closest BMW dealership is 150 miles away, one way. And I wouldn’t expect a dealership for Verge to appear here in Duluth for quite some time.

Hopefully, the Minneapolis-St. Paul area is big enough to accommodate a dealership for this special bike soon, if it launches successfully here in the USA.

https://imgur.com/enXkovx
 
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@2Wheelz - Just like any motorcycle or scooter shop can change the tire on the CE-04, they'll be able to do it on the Verge. Granted, they may be a little nervous about it, given the funky looks. Verge claims that tire changes on TS Pro are easier than most other bikes, but I would argue that it isn't going to be as easy as single-sidearm bikes like BMW CE-04.

The CE-04 is exceptionally easy to remove or install the wheel: just remove 5xT50 bolts and pull. Since the belt and the disk brake stay attached to the single side-arm, you can just use tire irons after that.

The Verge TS-Pro also requires 5 hex bolts to separate the wheel from the chassis, but then an additional 21 x T30 bolts to remove the motor from the rim. Your gonna want an impact driver or at least a cordless drill, as shown in this video of a tire change on the TS Pro:

 
triangletom said:
@2Wheelz - Just like any motorcycle or scooter shop can change the tire on the CE-04, they'll be able to do it on the Verge. Granted, they may be a little nervous about it, given the funky looks. Verge claims that tire changes on TS Pro are easier than most other bikes, but I would argue that it isn't going to be as easy as single-sidearm bikes like BMW CE-04.

The CE-04 is exceptionally easy to remove or install the wheel: just remove 5xT50 bolts and pull. Since the belt and the disk brake stay attached to the single side-arm, you can just use tire irons after that.

The Verge TS-Pro also requires 5 hex bolts to separate the wheel from the chassis, but then an additional 21 x T30 bolts to remove the motor from the rim. Your gonna want an impact driver or at least a cordless drill, as shown in this video of a tire change on the TS Pro:

Click to expand...
Thanks for this information (and the video link) as I really haven’t had time to really dig into all the nuts and bolts details of this new Verge electric motorcycle. I should not have made the assumption. Did not realize the motor can be separated from the wheel easily.

Good to know about the CE 04 as well, as I have not had to deal with removing the rear tire yet, and yes, my turn signals are still protected by zip ties.

FYI, the only major dealership in my locale that I have purchased Honda’s and Yamaha’s motorcycles through will not change tires on a make that they do not sell. The other smaller dealerships in my area have told me the same thing. You would think they would want the extra business in this economy, but they don’t. Maybe it’s just something goofy about my area and I’ve always thought it was stupid that dealerships would turn down potential new customers.
 
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2Wheelz said:
You would think they would want the extra business in this economy, but they don’t. Maybe it’s just something goofy about my area and I’ve always thought it was stupid that dealerships would turn down potential new customers.
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Ugh, that does suck. My closest BMW dealership is 60 miles away, so any trip to them is a multi-hour adventure on the CE-04, especially since it requires charging.

I'm thankful to have a general "PowerSports" store nearby that will work on any motorcycle, ATV or scooter. They were a little skeptical about working on the CE-04, but were at ease once they saw that wheel removal isn't substantially different from other BMW's.

I wouldn't go to them for scheduled maintenance work, however. While the techs at my local BMW dealer don't know how to work on the CE-04, they at least have access to the service manuals to learn on the fly.
 
I looked at the Livewire 1 but as soon as I found it had goofy Level 3 DC charging it was a no go for me. Most all riders want to fast charge at home on their level 2 chargers they use on their EV. They don''t make a DC fast charger for home use so your only option is the Sloooooow 110 v charger which means charging all night or all day. Harley made a major mistake on the Livewire making it DC instead of AC. Of course all the first buyers didn't even know what a charger was! Anyhow it was not long these over-prices bikes were back on Bike Trader. Harley lost ton's of sales with their crippled charging and finally dumped the Livewire from the parent company. Some pencil-head at Livewire finally figured out the mistake and equipped the Livewire 2 Del Mar with AC charging. We'll see how that sells.

If you look, you can find a AC charger but you'll be lucky to find a DC charger and when you do some Tesla, BMW, etc. s using it.

According to Electrek, as of January there are presently 16,822 Tesla Superchargers mostly in Ca or major cities. However there are 126,500 Level 2 chargers and only 20,431 Level 3 charge stations. This does not include thousands of level 2 AC chargers at eateries, winery, etc. Another problem with DC is your messing with ultra high current of around 350kw - one glitch in the hand-shake your bike and battery is toast. In fact for over 6 months DC chargers were crippling certain EV's. Also high speed DC charging decreases your batteries health.

Mike
 
triangletom said:
@2Wheelz - Just like any motorcycle or scooter shop can change the tire on the CE-04, they'll be able to do it on the Verge. Granted, they may be a little nervous about it, given the funky looks. Verge claims that tire changes on TS Pro are easier than most other bikes, but I would argue that it isn't going to be as easy as single-sidearm bikes like BMW CE-04.

The CE-04 is exceptionally easy to remove or install the wheel: just remove 5xT50 bolts and pull. Since the belt and the disk brake stay attached to the single side-arm, you can just use tire irons after that.

The Verge TS-Pro also requires 5 hex bolts to separate the wheel from the chassis, but then an additional 21 x T30 bolts to remove the motor from the rim. Your gonna want an impact driver or at least a cordless drill, as shown in this video of a tire change on the TS Pro:

Click to expand...
Tom 2wheelz thanks for sharing the video did not know it existed. - the Verge looks very innovative and 200+ miles now that's a bike to go touring with.

This is the one I picked out olive green model - now that's a bad-ass electric.

Mike

Screen Shot 2023-08-06 at 9.34.39 AM.png
 
I'm still on-board with the Verge, I'm increasingly convinced that Fuell may be building the better product, even if the Verge wins the looks contest. The more I dig into the data, the more I feel like that Verge Motorcycles is making Tesla-like extraordinary declarations that will disappoint in reality. In particular, their claims about torque and range.

Verge recently published the WMTC (World Motorcycle Test Cycle) range numbers, as required by EU law:

City350 km (217 mi)
Highway200 km (124 mi)
EU Regulation 134/2014, Annex VII191 km (118 mi)

In comparison, the WMTC (EU 134/2014) range for the BMW CE-04 is 130km (80mi).

The weirdest thing is for me is that the WMTC for the Verge TS Pro is below their stated highway range: I would have expected the WMTC rating to fall between the City and Highway numbers. I collected data on every two-wheeled EV I could find that is put through the 120km/h WMTC test, and for every other manufacturer, it's nearly an even average. For example, the Energica Experia has an official WMTC range of 222km and a claimed Highway/City range of 208/261km.

Altogether, the range numbers are concerning. They lead me to two conclusions:
  • Either the Verge TS Pro is inefficient, tests poorly on the WMTC, or BMW masterfully gamed the CE-04 to ace the WMTC test. How else would one explain how the Verge, with a 2.2X larger battery, only get 46% more range than the CE-04?
  • Either the Verge TS Pro tests poorly on the WMTC, or they are inflating their Highway/City numbers beyond compare.
One unexplained phenomenon to me is how difficult it is for me to get the CE-04 even close to its WMTC range, whereas Livewire ONE/Experia owners seem to get much closer to theirs. I know that range numbers vary wildly between the user and the locale, but I can't get rid of the nagging feeling that I'm missing something.
 
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triangletom said:
I'm still on-board with the Verge, I'm increasingly convinced that Fuell may be building the better product, even if the Verge wins the looks contest. The more I dig into the data, the more I feel like that Verge Motorcycles is making Tesla-like extraordinary declarations that will disappoint in reality. In particular, their claims about torque and range.

Verge recently published the WMTC (World Motorcycle Test Cycle) range numbers, as required by EU law:

City350 km (217 mi)
Highway200 km (124 mi)
EU Regulation 134/2014, Annex VII191 km (118 mi)

In comparison, the WMTC (EU 134/2014) range for the BMW CE-04 is 130km (80mi).

The weirdest thing is for me is that the WMTC for the Verge TS Pro is below their stated highway range: I would have expected the WMTC rating to fall between the City and Highway numbers. I collected data on every two-wheeled EV I could find that is put through the 120km/h WMTC test, and for every other manufacturer, it's nearly an even average. For example, the Energica Experia has an official WMTC range of 222km and a claimed Highway/City range of 208/261km.

Altogether, the range numbers are concerning. They lead me to two conclusions:
  • Either the Verge TS Pro is inefficient, tests poorly on the WMTC, or BMW masterfully gamed the CE-04 to ace the WMTC test. How else would one explain how the Verge, with a 2.2X larger battery, only get 46% more range than the CE-04?
  • Either the Verge TS Pro tests poorly on the WMTC, or they are inflating their Highway/City numbers beyond compare.
One unexplained phenomenon to me is how difficult it is for me to get the CE-04 even close to its WMTC range, whereas Livewire ONE/Experia owners seem to get much closer to theirs. I know that range numbers vary wildly between the user and the locale, but I can't get rid of the nagging feeling that I'm missing something.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the nice write up on the details so far of the Verge TS Pro, Tom. I’m sure as they roll out internationally and into the US, we’ll get more data to judge what the real deal is… but your findings are interesting.

As for color choices, I’m leaning towards the Blazing Red badass Verge TS Pro:

https://imgur.com/PBNepN3
 
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Yeah Verge has some serious range I thought I heard in the video 20 kw if that's right it has the same size pack as my big heavy Outlander Hybrid which has a 20 kw pack and gets 48 miles electric range . The verge range is pretty Impressive. Nice job on the bike list Tom

Are they selling Verge yet?

Mike

IMG_7419.JPG
 
Having owned half a dozen Can Am Spyders since 2006, I'll be checking out their offering "Only 100 mile range" 375 lbs.

There's a Promo video link.


Screen Shot 2023-08-07 at 12.53.24 PM.png

IMG_0326.jpg
 
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triangletom said:
Ugh, that does suck. My closest BMW dealership is 60 miles away, so any trip to them is a multi-hour adventure on the CE-04, especially since it requires charging.

I'm thankful to have a general "PowerSports" store nearby that will work on any motorcycle, ATV or scooter. They were a little skeptical about working on the CE-04, but were at ease once they saw that wheel removal isn't substantially different from other BMW's.

I wouldn't go to them for scheduled maintenance work, however. While the techs at my local BMW dealer don't know how to work on the CE-04, they at least have access to the service manuals to learn on the fly.
Click to expand...
My dealership is lest than 2 miles away. Since day 1 of ownership I've had problems with the technicians. First, in prepping the scooter someone "forgot" to add appropriate tire pressure to both tires. Never had this problem with petrol bikes I have purchased in the past. Next, the onboard computer did not show the correct data as to when the run-in check was due. I wanted to have the computer updated and was told it would take a long, long time. It was impractical to drop it off, have the techs connect via wifi and wait for the update. Finally, I did get the software update. Afterwards, the auto turn signal turn-off was no longer functional even though I made the change in the settings. Also, somehow my next service date, and mileage was incorrect.

I get the impression there are some dissatisfied techs at the dealership who simply did not care about quality of service for an EV.
 
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