The C-series scoots should have been 800s!!!

[Skutorr]

BMW HAD a great parallel-twin 800cc made for them by ROTAX for the f-800. Here is an excerpt:

"BMW developed with Rotax a 798 cc (48.7 cu in) parallel-twin engine with a 360 degree firing order. This produced an exhaust note reminiscent of BMW's signature air-cooled boxer twins. However, this firing order required both pistons to move up and down at the same time. To counter the significant inertia produced by the pistons reciprocating, BMW devised a third vestigial connecting rod to a balance weight. The result was a parallel twin with significantly reduced vibration compared with other parallel twin engine designs."

The Engine:



The Balancer:


The Belt Drive:


No "teething problems', a modern belt drive like the Tmax 530, a great 85 HP engine built by Rotax with a smooth 360 degree firing order (like the Tmax), who also made the 90 degree vee engine in the Aprilia SRV 850. Why not use THIS engine? It's what's currently in CanAms and would have KILLED all the competition!!!

Oh, it's more $$$....

 

[JaimeC]

Engine size plays a very big role in scooter design. Make the engine too big, and you either end up with a scooter too big to be truly practical, or you sacrifice utility by limiting the amount of available storage (the big Aprilia is a classic example of BOTH of these examples).

650cc is "big enough" for a scooter. Anything more is overkill.

 

[Edumakated]

Engine size plays a very big role in scooter design. Make the engine too big, and you either end up with a scooter too big to be truly practical, or you sacrifice utility by limiting the amount of available storage (the big Aprilia is a classic example of BOTH of these examples).

650cc is "big enough" for a scooter. Anything more is overkill.

This...

Don't really need more power. Scooter is already stupid fast. Only thing faster is the Aprilia. Only thing I need is maybe getting rid of some of the clutch lag at start which I think is fixed by lighter rollers and clutch replacement.

 

[wsteele]

I had a rotary engine car Mazda rx3 wasn't the fastest off the line but when the engine got its revs up there was no stopping it I know Suzuki and Norton made rotary bikes with about 500 cc engines and they had a lot of power not the best gas milage extremely fast and the engine was not very big maybe BMW will try that next

 

[Xian Forbes]

Rotary engines are dead. Even Mazda quit the RX 8. Going forward it's going to be all about economy to keep the public interest. Direct inject, variable valve timing should be the next technologies trickling down to bikes. My dad had an RX4 when I was a kid. It was fast enough but the low economy plagues that design, amongst other things.

 

[Skutorr]

Really? The Aprilia is NOT a twin, but a 90 degree vee, just like the Mana. That's why there is no place for storage under the seat...
As it is, they hot rod the SRV 850 to make IT faster, with a different clutch and aftermarket variator.

The F-800 is an extra 153cc, with a 3mm bigger bore, the rest is stroke, which equates to more usable torque at lower RPMs, which is actually BETTER for a scooter. The engine would be a bit wider to accommodate the dummy third rod and balancer, that's it, but would negate the need for counter-rotating balance shafts. In "scooter form" the Rotax would probably been tuned down a bit for better mileage, into the 75 HP range. That's about PERFECT for a two-up maxi trying to pass uphill...

A C800Sport and C800Gt with belt drive would have fulfilled BMWs stated aim, that of building a pair of Tmax530 and Brugman650 killers. As it is, the new Honda Integra 700/750 outsells them both COMBINED where it matters in Europe, and Burgman 650 and Tmax 530 sales were barely affected at all...

But they saved MONEY!

 

[JaimeC]

And the BMW 650s have still beaten the TMAX in every performance test I've seen published. The Burgman is nowhere close either. The 650 also gets better gas mileage than the 530cc TMAX and does so on lower octane fuel... so what exactly is your point?

I stick to my comment: 650cc is big enough. You want more performance? Buy a REAL motorcycle. There are PLENTY of those in all sizes and displacements.

 

[yellasei]

I do like the 800 motor and the belt drive system has been very reliable but to produce this for the scooter they would have had to re design the cases to take the cvt and gearbox etc. I think our current motors and the firing ordwr of the crank works wel enough for what we have and i am sure they will survive well. After all KYMCO have made parts for HONDA sinse the 1960's so they should by now know how to manufacture descent stuff.

 

[JaimeC]

Really? The Aprilia is NOT a twin, but a 90 degree vee, just like the Mana. That's why there is no place for storage under the seat...

A twin is a twin, whether it is a parallel twin, a V-Twin or a boxer twin. Number of cylinders is what determines whether an engine is a twin or not, not cylinder layout.

 

[Xian Forbes]

IMO of course. The C series are very well rounded and damn near perfect balance of economy, performance and utility. Anything that's bigger and faster is really trying to compete in the realm of magazine articles, not out in the real world of day in day out riding. I'd not want to give up any of my comforts or one square inch of storage or any economy. Unless you find yourself riding 75% of the time at wide open throttle, more would only lead to less in the grand scheme of things. Let's reflect on the Dodge Challenger Wildcat at 707 hp... Who the hell actually needs 700 ponies to get around town? I'm going to guess, no one, but because it's made a splash in the headlines it'll sell because it's perceived as being badass not because it honestly does anything better. Heck, maybe it is louder, less efficient, ect so that would make it worse. Unless your drag racing, so for 12 seconds at a time it would be better. I'm with Jaime, if you want more maybe get an RT or something.

 

[Skutorr]

And the BMW 650s have still beaten the TMAX in every performance test I've seen published. The Burgman is nowhere close either. The 650 also gets better gas mileage than the 530cc TMAX and does so on lower octane fuel... so what exactly is your point?

That the most knowledgeable scooter consumers on the planet have not whole-heartedly taken to the C-series scoots. It seems that the two major determinants that DID attract at least some buyers were the extra power, C600 vs. the Tmax530, and better handling, C650 vs. the Burgman 650.

Here is a year-old comparison comparison, after all the hype and New Scooter Smell had worn off:
Top 10 maxi scooters review - Motorcycle Top 10s - Visordown

Top 10 maxis?

#1 Tmax530
#2 C600
#3 C650
#4 Burgman 650
#5 Silverwing

Why the Tmax?:

"The TMAX tops our list for the best reason any motorcycle or scooter can top any list: it’s the most fun. Not fun compared to other scooters; fun full-stop. There’s a more immediate throttle response than usual from twist-and-goes, accompanied by a gratifying bark if you get the optional £790 Akrapovic exhaust system. It’s nimble and light for a maxi scooter, at 217kg. The bars are angled like a sports bike’s (but so low they may foul your knees if you’re a lot over six foot). It’s not the most economical (52mpg), practical or fastest maxi scooter in a straight line, but it’s beautifully balanced and addictive to ride. It is the closest thing there is to a genuine sports scooter."

 

[Xian Forbes]

Yep, just like I said, it's not about magazine articles for this rider. Tmax is not faster, does not have more torques or horse powers, does not have more storage capacity, does not have heated conveniences, is not more fuel efficient, and I'll guess that out on the open highway is not as well mannered and comfortable as the BMW. As we all know, the Sport and GT are Urban Transportation Solutions, not a substitute for a 600cc sport bike. I'm happy with my selection as I'm sure we all are. And to just be honest, "fun" is not a performance spec. it's a subjective opinion.

 

[wsteele]

I agree magazine articles can be quite persuasive but it is the ride, and all the extras that the bike has that makes the differance BMW seems to have done that

 

[Snowdog]

Oh, BTW, I am the head scooter guy of the world!!!!!!!! Listen to me!!! No one is qualified to decide what is the best scooter but me!!! and I say; It doesn't matter what you ride, it only matters that you have fun!!! Everyone is different, so no one scooter can make everybody happy. Therefore, there can be no BEST scooter.

 

[SteveADV]

Oh, BTW, I am the head scooter guy of the world!!!!!!!! Listen to me!!! No one is qualified to decide what is the best scooter but me!!! and I say; It doesn't matter what you ride, it only matters that you have fun!!! Everyone is different, so one scooter can make everybody happy. Therefore, there can be no BEST scooter.

I knew it!! You are the head scooter guy of the world!

 

[Doraemon]

Do all the mods I have done and have custom tune installed, like I did....and then see if you still want the 800.
I think you won't. Come up to seattle and try it out. I offered same to zack at cycle magazine when they did c600 comparison on you tube in cali...

 

[Skutorr]

Do all the mods I have done and have custom tune installed, like I did....and then see if you still want the 800.
I think you won't. Come up to seattle and try it out. I offered same to zack at cycle magazine when they did c600 comparison on you tube in cali...

TRUE! it's a ROCKET with the right parts!

 

[Snowdog]

Decals of engine sizes might solve the problem here. Just stick on the desired engine size you want to portray and watch the envy grow around you!! No one will be the wiser, cause you can't use the power anyway.

 

[Xian Forbes]

Decals of engine sizes might solve the problem here. Just stick on the desired engine size you want to portray and watch the envy grow around you!! No one will be the wiser, cause you can't use the power anyway.

Brilliant idea

 

[Dale]

650 is big enough for me. I came down from 1300 real bike to the 650 and like it better than the 1300 rice rocket. One day some MFG will put a 1000 engine into a scooter and it will be like riding a bike that would be to big for the streets, you could not get your foot down at a stop so what would be the point other than to say it has a 1000 in it.
Most scooter people don't want to ride a 650 because of its size for everyday grocery run. I have had scooter riders say what do you want with something that big.
If you want an 800 go get a real bike and give up the little items like storage space heated everything and just the all round convenience of the thing.